There’s an interesting article in today’s Guardian. In it Zoe Williams points out that there are probably more gay people in the UK than there are active members of the Church of England.
Update: A big welcome to all the fundementalist christians who seem to be coming across this entry thru some kind of Google search. I’m happy to hear your opinions, but please try to keep the homophobic bigotry to a minimum and remember that arguments based around some mythical sky pixie aren’t exactly compelling to non-believers.
Does not matter how may fags and lezzies there are, you’re all still sick fucks…
Thank you for sharing your intelligent comments with us.
As a straight female, I ghink that “MEMEMEME” has shown the world how un-educated, and sheltered that they are, gays are becoming a huge part of todays society, and I think that people need to except them, because it’s not like the’re going to disapear, so accept it, and crawl out of your cave.
hey memememe, thats whats wrong with you, YOUR UNEDUCATED! if you were to become educated and speak intelligently maybe someone would listen to you. well the real problem facing gays is that people are unacustomed to there lifestyle. being gay is not a disease, it is like being left handed or blue eyed. if you want to email me you can larsm_eyes@hotmail.com
Hey guys, not to ‘down pour’ on anybody’s thoughts or feelings toward gay people, I would like to ask you to just take a look at this website….. http://www.thewordsofeternallife.com/gay.htmlthis is not to ‘hurt’ anybodys feelings, or downsize thier opinion, it is your opinion, and this one is mine, if you are interested please check it out…..thank you
Tina,
Thanks for your comment. That article is just a list of biblical references pointing to passages that talk about homosexuality (amongst other things) being a sin.
Now you may be happy to live your life following a set of rules in a book that that was written thousands of years ago by people in a society completely different to the one that we live in today, but you have to accept that many people (perhaps even most people) would like to believe that we’ve moved on. The words in that book have no relevance today.And please don’t respond that the words were written or inspired by some mystical sky pixie. That explanation is just ridiculous.
Davorg,
Thank you for your reply.
But even though this Book was written thousands of years ago, the Bible clearly states that God is the same now, that he was from the beginning of time, he has not changed. His rules are still the same, and they do apply to this world today. Though most people do not agree, this is, once again, my belief and my opinion. I am not ‘criticizing’ your view of how the world works, or how you live your life. If you do not know about the Bible, please do not state comments. Because they are false.
-Tina(once again, not to offend anyone)
Tina,
Please don’t imply that I don’t know the bible. I know the bible very well. It is a very interesting book. But that’s all it is. A book that was written by a number of different people from different cultures with different religious beliefs over a considerable amount of time. You may choose to believe that it is the word of god, but that is simply something that you have chosen to believe. You have no scientific evidence to back up that belief.
The original article that you pointed to bases a lot of its authority on Leviticus. But that lists the laws of judaism. Modern christians don’t follow those rules. Do you follow all of the laws in Leviticus? Here are a few that most modern christians no longer follow:
[Lev 3: 17] It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood. (Do you remove all the fat or blood from meat that you eat?)
[Lev 5: 15] If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering. (Do you sacrifice a lamb when you confess a sin?)
[Lev 11: 7/8] And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you. (Do you ever eat pork or bacon?)
There are plenty more examples in Leviticus. Unless you follow _all_ of the laws there, then you can’t use any of them as an argument against any activity. There’s nothing in the list that says you can pick or choose which rules you follow.Of course, the article also has New Testament citations. These all come from the letters of Paul. As far as I can see, this gives them extremely dodgy authority. I’ve never understood why christians put so much store by what Paul says and writes. There is plenty of evidence in (non-canon) writing that Jesus intended his brother James the Just to be the leader of the church after his death (see, for example, the Gospel of Thomas, Book 12) and that Paul wrested this control from James against the wishes of Jesus’ family. These events are (understandably) missing from the Pauline church’s version of the bible.
Phew, well I waffled on for a lot longer than I intended. Short version – I choose to believe that the bible is not divinely inspired. You may choose differently but you’ll have to expect people to ask you to defend that decision logically.
Well, Davorg,
Thank you for your input.
Sorry for assuming that you did not know the Bible. I understand the point you are coming from about the Old Testement. But my faith still stands firm with the new testament statings. I respect you for your beliefs, and I do expect people to ask me questions to defend my faith logically. But that doesn’t mean I have to defend it logically, because my faith is based on not mere reason, but because God is My Savior, and I believe His Word, and this is what I choose, i don’t have to give a logical reason why God is God and why His word is right, because I know it in my heart.
But, thankyou for your input, and once again I am sorry for assuming.
-Tina
It saddens me greatly to see the world slipping further and further into this pit of sexual impurity and perversion. The issue of homosexuality isn’t just a Biblical one, though that would certainly be enough. It also tears at the very fabric of human society and biology.
If we are to believe that homosexuality is a natural part of life, that people are just born that way, then we have to also believe that it is an undesirable biologic defect, like retardation, bipolar disorder, or any other deviant mental disease. Homosexuality practiced with out the benefits of modern technology would lead to an extinction of the human species. Simply put, only heterosexuals can re-produce without the benefits of science. Homosexuality violates the laws of nature, even if you choose to believe we are mere animals with no higher consciousness or any spiritual being. Nature intended opposite sex pairings. This is the logical end of the argument.
On the spiritual side, there is no question that God opposes homosexuality. In Genesis God destroyed Sodom (where do you think the word sodomy comes from) and Gomorrah. He destroyed those cities because the inhabitants “…gave themselves up to sexual immorality (fornication, and adultery) and perversion (homosexuality, bestiality, necro-phelia etc.) Jude 7. The point that sexual immorality (including homosexuality) is wrong was re-instated time and time again throughout the Old Testament (Read any and all or Proverbs) as well as in the New Testament. Romans 1:26-27: “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense [sic] of their error which was meet.
“There is also a general implied anti-homosexuality theme to the entire Bible. God created Eve for Adam, not Jimmy for Adam. Since man was immortal in the Garden of Eden prior to sin, if God wanted to give Adam just a companion and sex partner, he could have just as easily given him another man who would also live forever in an eternal orgy of homosexual pleasure — this didn’t happen. After Eve was created, God established marriage as a union between men and women, no mention is ever made that same sex unions would be allowed (the Bible is very specific on what it does and does not allow, it would have mentioned those type of relationships had it intended them). The Bible NEVER, EVER mentions male/male or female/female relations and how they SHOULD be conducted. Instead it only mentions the proper workings of the ONLY accepted relationship according to God, which is a male/female marriage. Even males and females are completely forbidden to have sex outside of marriage. The fact that there is no acceptance of homosexuality or instructions as to how a homosexual relationship should be run in the Bible (no matter how you translate specific “controversial” passages) means that it was automatically assumed that all readers would understand that homosexuality isn’t even an option. Since homosexuality cannot be used to “go forth and multiply” (certainly not in the time before modern science) and it can only be used to glorify pleasures of the flesh, it automatically falls under the category of man’s sinful nature. Any glorification of the flesh from seeking riches, to drinking, to overeating, to sexual immorality of any type is expressly forbidden in almost every book of the Bible.
Finally, homosexuality tears away at family structure. How can there be generation to generation love and acceptance when there are violent breaks in the generations when one person in the chain of birth(of person) – marriage (to a biologically able to reproduce spouse) – birth (of the next generation) is broken due to acceptance of homosexuality by an individual. That family line is severed forever. Plus, since it is unnatural for homosexuality to occur, it promotes strife from parents to children. No rational father or mother WANTS their child to be homosexual. As parents we are taught to love our children, so many grudgingly accept such a choice. However, as many homosexual men will tell you, they no longer speak to their fathers due to their choice of homosexuality. This alone is cause for condemnation by God, Proverbs 11:29 “Those who trouble their households will inherit wind, and the fool (one who ignores God’s ways) will be servant to the wise (one who follows God’s ways)”. Proverbs 6:16-19 “There are six things the Lord hates, … one who sows discord in a family.”
Myself, speaking as a father of three, I would never want my children to ever tell me they had chosen a homosexual lifestyle. That would automatically preclude grandchildren (at least naturally) and prevent the extension of my family line. It would cause me great pain and cause much discord in our family.
Puuuulllleeezzzeeeee
Well, in a single generation they’d all be extinct as they can not reproduce unless they engage in hetersexual sex. Since they refuse to listen to God, perhaps if nature (incidently set in motion by God) took it’s course with them, upon the end of the current generation they, like dinasours before them will become extinct as they can not reproduce “mating” male to male, nor female to female as God had commanded male & female to be fruitful and multiply when He set all in motion, begining with Adam & Eve.
But they don’t become extinct in a single generation do they. And do you know why? Because straight couples keep producing new gay people. What does your Imaginary Friend have to say about that?
Here is the way i look at it… The bible has a lot of homosexuality in it, so there is a past of homosexuality, it isn’t a new invention. But in the bible, when God was going to destroy Sodom and Gomora, he spared Lot and his family. When the two angels came to tell Lot the news, the whole town gathered outside his house, and told Lot that they wanted to rape the two new men that had entered his house (homosexuality). But it showed it in a wrong type of way. Lot was willing to offer his two virgin daughters instead, because he knew that these guys were angels. It was a sin that was right up there with adultery and murder. But anyways, these two angels took Lot and his family out of sodom, and spared their lives because they were spared. So i find that if two men or women want to get married, then i don’t think that they can do it in the church, they should have to do it outside of the church, because it is not right in God’s eyes.
Its simple you either follow the will of G-D and obey his comandments or burn in hell. The choice is yours.
“prophet” paul,
No-one will burn in hell. Hell is an invention of christian writers. I stopped having an imaginary friend when I was still a child. I suggest you do the same.
It’s rare to see a debate where absolutely everybody is wrong! (Apart from me of course, because I am an arrogant bighead and therefore impervious to mistakes!) Here is why you’re all misguided:
Dave: Your comment regarding the bible, that “The words in that book have no relevance today” is wrong, simply because a lot of people say they have relevance. Their lives and actions are affected by those words, hence by definition the words are relevant. Whether they are worthy of this status is another matter.
Treat-everything-in-the-bible-with-equal-weighting people: Sexuality is at the very core of a person’s being, it defines who they are in a much more fundamental way that the other things in Leviticus like the meat-eating. So to treat everything in Leviticus equally is a mistake, like saying that a person who’s swatted a few flies in his time is as bad as a serial killer.
Militant atheists: Your lack of belief cannot be proven any more than somebody else’s belief. So you have just as strong a belief system as they do.
Gay men: I’m sorry to have to tell you this, but sticking your penis up another man’s bottom is ridiculous! If you don’t believe me, video yourself doing it, play it back, and then tell me that you don’t look silly!
Homophobes: Don’t hide behind the bible or “it’s against nature” arguments, just be honest and say you don’t like it, that you find it disgusting, and that you don’t want to see it in public. Pro-fox-hunters came up with all this rubbish that was so implausible that it was ludicrous; at least if they’d said “Well, to be honest, we just enjoy it” then at least you could respect their honesty.
Homophobes (again): Gays are actually quite useful to us manly heteros! If it’s you and two other men all going for the same woman, if the two other blokes decide that they’d rather have each other then you’re quids in! Gays cut down the field! Hurray! (Not sure how lesbians then fit into this argument by narrowing the choice of women, but it’s a start!)
People who write things like “YOUR UNEDUCATED!”: Priceless!(On another point of interest, a correspondent above notes that the term “sodomy” comes from Sodom, but for ten points can he identify which sexual term comes from Gemorrah? I reckon it’s “ghonorrea” but that’s only a guess.)
I’m a gay christian guy, who loves Jesus and will go to heavea. I have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour and If being gay is wrong, then Jesus will change me..otherwise. I will continue being gay. Now, I am not a typical gay feminine guy either. Being gay does not mean, that I want to have a sex change nor, I want to be a girl either. I’m a guy who is attracted to the other males, in a non-sexual, just for their character and then their looks..just like any relationship. However, in order to have sex the Bible does mention marriage. So, I’m still not certain how I feel about gay marriage.
Hi, my name is Tonyaand I am new to the site, I am writing a paper for my college class about gays in the church, should they be preaching why or why not I would like to have any ones input or comments just email or post it here on this site.
I really would appreciate the help.
I am a sophmore in high school and i think that the answer to this pathetic quarel is too obvious. All that the religious people have is a book that tells them how to live their lives. My whole family is very much against homosexuals, and choose to live by “God’s Guidelines” i on the other hand think that if two HUMAN BEINGS love eachother and are attracted to eachother then they shouldbe able to do things equally regardless to their race, sexuality, or religion. Is the “fagget” the “nigger” of the 21st century?
The lord abhors homosexuality and both sex outside of marriage. Marriage was only created for men and women. So, gay people must remain virgins forever as there is no such thing as marriage recognized by God. Even lust is a grievous sin. All you can do is keep praying and striving to overcome your perversion.
Liz,
Thanks for your comments. If by “the lord” you mean the christian god then you’re just going to have to accept that the majority of people in the world don’t belief that he exists, and we’re hardly going to stop doing things that we enjoy doing because some mythical sky pixie says that we should.
Look at it like this. You would be offended if a Muslim, a Hindu or a Wiccan expected you to follow the rules of their religion. So why try to foist your religion onto us?
gays and lesbians should all hide under a bridge together…..naked. There they can truly be free and live in harmony. p.s. im gay
It is nice to see that there is interest in this very controversial topic. This was a question posed years ago on this blog and there appears to be little hope towards a consensus. The truth is that Christians would not be offended if a Muslim or Hindu expressed “rules” they would like Christians to follow. Those two faiths are greatly intertwined with culturally specific traditions, Christians often travel to these regions and follow many of the Muslim “rules” of dress, conduct, and diet. But the reverence one has for “their” God is much more embedded within them. A Muslim will always bow to Allah even when in the most Christian nation and a Christian will allows praise Jesus Christ even when in Iran. But aside from that; Gays have managed to find a way to be both Gay and Christian. We as humans poses many talents, but, moral judgement is not one of them. We all fall short of perfection. Ultimately God, whom ever you believe or don’t believe that is, will judge the life one has lived. If you don’t believe in God, it doesn’t matter how many people talk about God to a homosexual–period. You can’t argue to authority of the scriptures (Bible or Quaran) with someone who grants them no power.
You can honor God and your body, straight or gay; you can dishonor God and dishonor your body, straight or gay. You can have reverence for God and and be Gay. God does not make mistakes, but we do experience trails, both straight and Gay. If a gay man or a lesbian woman was seeking God I would not shun her/him because they tell me they desire the same sex. “You do not have because you do not ask,…ask and you shall receive” We have no right to say there are imperfections in any being, for they too were created in the image of God.
cc,
I really can’t see how this is a controversial topic. People should be free to do whatever they want as long as everyone involved is consenting and no-one is forced into anything that they aren’t comfortable with.
The mythological opinions of invisible sky-pixies really shouldn’t enter into it.